The most impactful elements of modern agriculture are entirely animal-based. Full-stop.
You in fact rightfully but incompletely recognize : artificial fertilizers (for giant mono-crop fields of soybeans to feed to cows and pigs [0]), replacing forests (to clear room for soybean fields and pasture for cows and pigs [1][2]), and runoff of these fertilizers and manure into waterways. The parent comment is right - if we want to fix these problems, we must stop killing and eating animals at such an industrial and horrendous scale.
If it was a competition in who did more harm the distinction may be relevant but in terms of saving the environment and turning back the ecosystem back to a sustainable one, the distinction between animal based or non-animal based is mostly irrelevant. Modern agriculture are not sustainable for the environment. The fossil fuels that are pulled from the earth and put on fields are not sustainable, and the amount of run off that goes into the water are destroying ecosystems with no time table if they ever can recover. When different species goes extinct they stay extinct, and the distinction that "well, its not as harmful as animal-based agriculture" will not bring them back. The Baltic Sea an loud warning signal of what happens if we continue to go down this path of modern agriculture.
One of the few areas of sustainable farming is aquaculture like shellfish and seaweed, which could actually be used to reduce the negative effects caused by modern farming. If there were a competition in least amount of harm, those would likely be the winners.
Fields of corn or soybeans will still exist without animal-based agriculture, especially with current demand for biofuels. As long as the land can be farmed to generate revenue, people will farm it. Artificial fertilizers is the primary enabler of this.
No one is saying fields of corn and soybean wouldn't exist, but we would have far less of them without animal agriculture. You are creating a false dichotomy of "sustainable"/"not sustainable" the reality is human societies would be much more sustainable without animal agriculture. More sustainable does in fact result in less extinctions/ecosystem impact and reduced climate change.
Maybe I'm wrong but reading your comment it feels like you are letting the perfect be the enemy of the good, and you use your conclusion that we will never be sustainable as your excuse to continue to eat animals.
> No one is saying fields of corn and soybean wouldn't exist, but we would have far less of them without animal agriculture
There is no evidence that there would be far less farm fields without that. Farm fields exists if there is profit to be had. Right now the demand for biofuels are directly competing with the demand for animal feed. Farmers will primary grow and sell crops based on what pay the most, and can easily switch if one pays more than the other.
Notice that none of those says that farmers would not use the fields if the current most price worthy crop would go away. Farmers choose what to farm based, among other things, the market. If you remove animal agriculture, you don't get far less fields. You get fields with a different crop in them.
The only thing that will stop farming is either if the external cost of farming is applied, such as pollution, or if climate change makes farming the land unprofitable. Currently that pollution is not applied as a cost. A carbon and water pollution tax could be a strategy that addressed this, and would impact all farming regardless of crop. If that is "perfection" and "enemy of the good", then the definition of perfection is not shared.
> in terms of saving the environment and turning back the ecosystem back to a sustainable one, the distinction between animal based or non-animal based is mostly irrelevant
this is simply false - did you follow any of the citations? you’re welcome to find something to support your position but as they say: if it can be asserted without evidence, it can be dismissed without evidence.
Sure, nobody’s saying it’s an inscrutable mystery but if your goal is to inform a wide audience it’s considered good form to expand all but the most common acronyms. It’ll even get you more internet points than petty smugness.
I'm sure lots of people have heard of CVEs, but have you actually read many? LPE is an extremely common term. It's like not knowing RCE. These are the terms used.
I'm as stunned as you are. I have to read CVEs on a weekly cadence (like contractually required to) and LPE/RCE are kind of the main keywords we look for in them. Also increasingly TOCTOU. If anyone who actually has to respond to CVEs told me they had never seen these terms before I would judge them as being unserious.
I'll raise my hand here and risk downvotes from very smart people who are smarter than me, but I've heard of CVE but not LPE or RCE. I know what the latter two terms are but am not used to seeing them in acronyms.
So what's missing is that keeping up-to-date with CVEs is important and some CVEs are Internet-nerd famous. Remember Heartbleed? Even some casual gamers I know had heard of it. And everyone who's mildly serious about sysadmin knows you want to defensively keep systems patched against important CVEs. The second layer of that, what the exploits actually are or do, is a second-layer term of art, one that one might miss the jargon for even if one has familiarity with the concepts.
To me, the fact that the page is obviously AI-assisted is way more upsetting than some guy not knowing what an acronym means. There's something about AI prose that is just so fucking tedious. It makes the mind glaze over.
To be clear, I'm not suggesting that you if have heard of CVEs therefor you must have heard of LPE. I'm saying if you have read many of them you would have seen these terms.
I obviously do not expect someone who has merely heard of various CVEs before to know anything about the contents of those CVEs. The other poster said they had "read many CVEs", which I took to mean they have read many CVE disclosures, where the term is extremely common. Perhaps they meant that they've read about CVEs, in which case I can see why the term would not be on their radar.
some people just don't have a good memory for acronyms. It's one thing to learn the concept of a privilege escalation, but an entirely different thing to play mental memory with TLAs (three letter acronyms). Acronyms remove all the context from a term which makes them way harder to memorize. A bit like knowing your friends vs knowing their phone numbers.
I think they've almost certainly seen it written out, just not as an acronym. I figured out what it stood for based on context and knowing the full phrase, but I don't recall actually seeing the LPE acronym in recent memory. Whereas with CVE it's the opposite: I almost never see it written out, and even now find it non-obvious what the E stands for, bizarrely enough.
This question seems a bit of a non sequitur. I worked along side my father in the trades for over a decade (to pay for college, my house, etc) as I've already stated in my parent post. Unless you're asking about something else?
Even if you were right about that, which you're not, but it's actually funnier if you are, you'd be wrong about the argument at hand.
Wages, per both Merriam-Webster and Cambridge (which, hint is why you're wrong about the objective definition thing. Why would we need multiple disagreeing dictionaries if words had objective definitions?), are paid to employees based on a contractual obligation.
Prisoners are not employees and are not contractually obligated to participate in work. Prisoners are legally (not contractually) required to complete work (regardless of being employed or not), and can (and do) face punishment for not completing compulsory work.
The reason that you are not seeing people being sentenced "to labor" is that there is no need to sentence someone "to labor" because the laboring is already included in their sentence as a part of their terms of commitment as outlined in the policies of the various prisons as allowed by the 13th amendment.
No court has to specify that the convicted can be compelled to slavery because that specification is inherent in the conviction.
This type of comment is not welcome on HN. Please listen to the people you're engaging with, and try to see their perspective without using perjoratives or dismissing them.
Arkansas, Georgia, and Texas did not pay inmates for any work whether inside the prison (such as custodial work and food services) or in state-owned businesses. Additionally, Alabama, Florida, Mississippi, Oklahoma, and South Carolina allowed unpaid labor for at least some jobs.
It’d be inaccurate to say that no one is paid for their labor, but it’s dishonest to claim that all prisoners receive wages, especially when it’s not always the case, it’s an order of magnitude below the federal minimum, and they are forced to pay above-market prices for necessary goods, as others have pointed out.
You can also review Council v. Ivey about parole denial to continue forced labor through one of those fancy terminals.
You in fact rightfully but incompletely recognize : artificial fertilizers (for giant mono-crop fields of soybeans to feed to cows and pigs [0]), replacing forests (to clear room for soybean fields and pasture for cows and pigs [1][2]), and runoff of these fertilizers and manure into waterways. The parent comment is right - if we want to fix these problems, we must stop killing and eating animals at such an industrial and horrendous scale.
0. https://www.ucs.org/about/news/extent-emissions-created-mass...
1. https://ourworldindata.org/drivers-of-deforestation
2. https://gfw.global/39qbPdC
3. https://ourworldindata.org/global-land-for-agriculture
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