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Fun turns to disaster when you lose. Sadly, many can't control it, destroying entire lives in the process.

(Not passing judgment)


Unless you're being offered a very good package, any firing email is cold. Let's be honest

There's no real way to sugar-coat losing your job. I think an email is as good as anything. Ensures everyone gets the same message at the same time.

I think the headline is not the best headline, but what it meant by "cold" is that there was no advance warning. So like cold-calling somebody, but to fire them, and an email instead.

Which I would definitely prefer. A couple of years ago, two weeks before Thanksgiving, management announced there would be layoffs. No timeline on when the cuts would be shared or number impacted. People had to sit around for weeks, wondering if they had a job. Should I buy Xmas presents? Who knows!

I'd prefer this honestly. Would take 1-2 weeks to start updating my resume and listing out all accomplishments, relevant projects, etc.

At-will employment is hard. Honestly, if you aren't planning to lose your job tomorrow when your at-will, you're not being honest with yourself. I wish it were different, but outside a union contract or some other fairly well-combed over business contract, you should not assume you will get paid tomorrow.

The best strategy is to save up at least 6 months of runway.

This is the real underlying story, and it may be unfair to expect people to "do this on their own" but in the USA, you really need to do this on your own.

> Should I buy Xmas presents? Who knows!

If losing your job means you can't afford buying presents, isn't it good to know your job is at risk?

Better than buying presents and then getting fired right?


That’s the point. Tell me today if I still have a job. Do not make everyone sweat about it for an undetermined amount of time. That’s unnecessary financial stress on all of the people who were not impacted.

In one case it was "we may be considering layoffs" told to us in September, and right after thanksgiving was "we will be doing layoffs after Christmas" - but the list of those laid off wasn't available.

Maybe we need the corporate version of "Good night, Wesley, I'll no doubt fire you in the morning."


The problem with advance warning is the employee who decides to sabotage in revenge.

For example, a company I knew in the 80s had a wholly owned subsidiary. It was losing money, so it was decided to close the subsidiary. Management decided that they'd be nice guys, and notified the subsidiary that it would be closed in 90 days and then everyone would be laid off.

90 days later, management arrived to close the facility. It was empty, stripped clean of everything. Not a lick of work was done in the 90 days, and nobody was there. There were reports that trucks had come to the loading dock, and took everything they could carry.

The cost of that led to the collapse of the company.


I find it hard to blame the workers in this story... it's a poor indictment of the management if they only checked in 3 months later and got this surprise - no wonder the company collapsed!

The workers who left the company while still collecting a paycheck for 90 days are essentially stealing, and the ones who stripped the premises were also thieves.

I agree it was poor management to not oversee what was happening.

This is why management does not give advance notice of layoffs. Usually, when a person gets laid off, their first notion of it is a security guard is there to help them fill a box with their personal items and escort them out.

Nobody likes this, but it's the inevitable result of a bad apple now and then. For example, most people aren't thieves, but banks still need security guards because there are thieves.


The company is free to pay the salary and tell the employee not to show up during that time.

Which is so common it's called "garden leave".

Whatever you do, do not ever book a 1:1 meeting on a Friday afternoon for Monday morning titled, "The Future."

I had to let an employee go because he didn't do any work, took forever to respond to chats (in a remote position), and was always late for meetings. I scheduled the 4pm Friday meeting to let him go. He was 15 minutes late.

Sounds like me on site, ADHD is a bitch, people probably think I don’t anything too.

I've found that there can be a chasm between "what people think I do" and "what I actually do." But also, there can be a chasm between "what I think I do" and "what I actually do."

If the system in which you operate does not attempt to measure this, I think it's worth it for anyone to measure it themselves. We can so easily be overconfident or underconfident. Collect the data and see the kinds of things you've actually been accomplishing over a year.

I'll feel like I'm getting nothing done, and then I look at the year's changelogs and realize I'm actually doing just fine for where I want to be.


And traceability.

In a 1:1 meeting you could fire me and say a gazillion things and I'd forget 99.9% of them.


Or, with emotions flaring, could say something that becomes grounds for a wrongful termination or discrimination claim.

I think its very impolite to not do it face-to-face.

What time is a good time for everyone to show up for a face-to-face layoff meeting for a global company?

If you don't do it simultaneously, you're going to hear by rumor rather than by official email, which is IMHO worse.

If you do it simultaneously, everyone will know something is up, because there's never simultaneous global meetings.


the practicalities of the issue don't stop it from being impolite.

There is no perfect or right way to do this. Every approach will have criticism (and not every approach is equal), and different people will appreciate different things about the trade-offs.

Is it polite to let people stew for hours, or days, as virtual meetings spread across the company to convey the news in person? It is polite to schedule those meetings all at once with the implications clear - how is that any different than just confirming it an email? Is that better or worse than scheduling such calls with short notice, so that every employee must wonder for days (maybe weeks, depending on staffing and leverage model) whether they still have a job, when that information could have been communicated immediately to allow for immediate preparations?

You and I as senior managers might both apply the golden rule in this situation, but that could lead to different decisions.


You're just making excuses for them. The approach they chose was rude and cowardly. Even within this cowardice, further cowardice shows, with the email being sent from no specific individual but simply an amorphous "Oracle Leadership".

Oracle as a company are cowardly and rude and the practicalities are simply an excuse. There's clearly one "better way" which is to put a name at the end of the email, for perhaps Larry himself to take responsibility as he should.

If anything the practicalities show how arbitrary the decision was. Checking the Oracle subreddit we got people with "exceeds expectations" as their average still getting culled. It would appear how they decided upon the cuts reflects on how they have performed them. With all the sophistication of a child in a candy shop trying to buy more candy than their piggy bank can afford and then just dropping the excess on the floor, walking away and trying to forget that it ever happened.


> You're just making excuses for them.

I am communicating my own sincerely held belief on general practices with large-scale layoffs, and my sincere disagreement with the black-and-white declarative than a mass email is definitely worse than individual conversations. Reasonable people can disagree.

I am not evaluating the full list of circumstances in this specific situation as I wouldn't be able to even if I were interested in doing so. If we were taking wagers, I'd wager my opinion of the Ellisons is at least as negative as yours independent of anything to do with this story.

> There's clearly one "better way" which is to put a name at the end of the email, for perhaps Larry himself to take responsibility as he should.

Completely agree with that, though ultimately it should be many names, not just one.


I agree. But, IMO it's what you should expect going to work for a giant company. It's a machine, it does not care about you. Some of the people will care about you, but often their influence is quite limited. It's important to understand this at the start.

I'm sorry but you work at Oracle. Terrible people. Very rude people. You should expect it.

I don't, so I can still call how they do things: rude.

What is the alternative? Have 30,000 meetings? How long will that take?

A great alternative would be operating a company correctly so you don't end up in a situation where you need to cut 30k jobs at once with no notice. That's a bizarre thing that's becoming practically normalized in the USA tech industry.

The realistic alternative is to regularly cut a smaller number of people, which is awful for morale.

Does it have to be awful for morale if the reasoning is clear and compassionate? People understand that shit happens.

And I don't mean this in a mean or evil way, but (of course there's a but) I wonder if this would motivate people to work more effectively as well. My organization has had cuts lately, but it hasn't in a decade. It has been transformative. People are reminded that their jobs depend on them showing up and being valuable.

I don't want people to be scared for their jobs. Perhaps this cycle creates false security, though. There must be a balance in here somewhere.


People tend to be bad in estimating the performance of others and are almost always bad in estimating their own performance. So you end up with people asking themself why it wasn't them and if they will be next. And management can't tell you you are safe, because it might change - and if they promise they can only do that once.

Agree. People understand and accept firing for performance issues. People understand and accept layoffs when they're a rare event needed to save the company from bankruptcy. What's not understandable or acceptable to most is the current trend of companies doing annual or even quarterly layoffs as an ongoing way to manage earnings.

Can you imagine a company spending a long time on meetings?!

6+ months' notice with a severance package equal to at least an annual salary.

Why would you give someone 6 months notice? What good is that for the employee? Especially if the severance is generous.

“Hey, we’re going to fire you in 6 months. Just a heads up.”

Nah. Give me the year of salary and send me home today. Better for the employee and for the company than pointlessly dragging it out. Again, this is assuming generous severance.


Job hunting takes time. Also, they won't be deported in 30 days, along with their families.

I can do a lot of job hunting with a year of severance.

Valid point about employees on visas though.


Maybe they could be kept on the payroll without access to actually work.

But the real problem is any law that would deport someone 30 days after they were laid off, even if they had been working for years. That should be 6 months minimum.


Keeping them on the payroll also enables companies to easily manage and extend medical insurance. I’m pretty sure that what you propose is what a lot of companies actually do, too. They keep them on the payroll for the duration of their severance but do not expect them to actually work.

Agree that no one should be getting deported on 30 days because they got laid off.


A "performance improvement plan" is almost always a 6-month/1 year warning that you're going to get fired/laid off.

It's common in some companies.


PIPs are like a month.

Giving any kind of notice about layoffs while expecting employees to continue working is just bad for everyone.

The employees stress out about whether they're going to be impacted. Nobody gets much work done as they update their resumes and prepare for the worst. The best people start looking for other opportunities and find them. If specific employees are told they're going to be laid off, some seek revenge.

Much better to immediately notify those impacted, revoke their access, give them generous severance instead of expecting them to work, and let everyone else know they're safe.


You immediately notify to the affected persons with the given notice period. This is how it's done in civilized countries.

6 months notice + 12 months salary, which is what you are proposing, seems strictly worse to me than just 18 months salary and no notice.

Were those people not already having regular 1-on-1 meetings with a manager?

In many cases the manager is among those laid off. In fact some VPs and their entire org have been laid off.

It's crazy to me that companies are allowed to do this, given that staff are generally expected to be accommodating and give notice when they quit.

Expected, yes, required, not at all.

It is completely legal to just stop showing up one day.


You also don't have to give back 6-12 weeks of pay when you give your 2 weeks notice.

In the US you can simply stop going to a job. No need to tell anybody.

In the US, different countries have processes more favorable to employees.

Even if you're being offered a very good package, being fired, regardless of how, is cold.

Depends on the circumstances. There are people who are ready to go any the time of a layoff if the terms are right.

Could Karen retaliate by saying she never got the required proof? I think she could cause a missed payment or two. Probably it's not Karen, it's the stupid law that requires a piece of paper every x years.


Hit and run is different; the car is insured, regardless of the driver. If criminal, they will interview to see if the owner was driving, who else had access to the car, and so on.


A few billion here and there are needed to keep the game going. Small cost of doing business, considering the alternative


As long as they promised. Their word is golden


Grok is chosen because Musk spent $250+ million to elect Trump and is expected to underwrite the 2026 elections. Also, a lot of Trumps and their friends are invested in SpaceX. So they give them money too, but use OpenAI or Claude. I have a feeling that the military likes Claude more


Didn’t they choose Anthropic first and then all of this happened so they were forced to go with Grok?

Not adding up


Also I imagine this is partly due to intra-military power struggles. I'm sure there are a lot in the DoW who like Anthropic- models wise and all that they stand for. The supply chain thing was a way to take the power from them, though petty.

Pete is also facing a lot of risk from AI, power structures will be forced to change once a few teams can take over entire departments of people. The military ecosystem is very much like the private sector in where the number of butts in seats is a metric for people. The dynamics will be changed if your group can just hand-roll what they relied on others for.


We must conclude that they’re wary of Grok. Maybe it’s the incentive for bias and sabotage.


Their stock would crash to $10 without the hype machine


Après moi, le déluge.


It will be zero if they keep doing the same shit


Ultimately, I believe there will need to be something catastrophic to oust musk/change leadership. And by that point, its questionable if anything worthwhile will be left to salvage.

My current bet is that optimus will fail spectacularly and Tesla gets left far behind as Rivian's R2 replaces it.

One thing I will note: I know folks that work at TSLA. Musk is more of a distraction. If he goes and if competent leadership is brought in, there's still enough people and momentum to make something happen...


this is literally one of 1-3 companies who have a decent strategy in the age of AI. the rest is pretending changes will not affect them. even this judgement: the guy decided to pick the phone while driving car not capable of red light detection. It could be any other car with similar auto steer capabilities. Right now same car with OTA updates would keep him alive. Sure, they are doing something wrong.


Did mecha-Hitler tell you that?


Will it actually? Has the market sent any signal that they won’t tolerate Musk?

You’re a lot more optimistic about this than I am.


Iran is f-ed!


A bug here and a bug there...


  100 nasty bugs in the code
  100 bugs in the code
  Take one down
  Patch it around
  -127 nasty bugs in the code


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