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90% of employees aren't getting laid off and continue to earn top of market pay. Even if you think layoffs are distributed randomly (they aren't), that has positive EV.

Positive EV for the employees vs. another company that pay less and has less lay-offs (assuming random)? I guess it depends on how much less pay the other company is...

> Is he going to pay the severances out of pocket?

More or less? The vast majority of his personal net worth is tied up in FB stock.

As to the other questions -- the severance package is pretty generous.


Layoffs don't necessarily lead to share prices dropping, in the short term or long term. It definitely wouldn't impact the loans he presumably lives off of by using said shares as collateral.

The severance that is paid out is money that could have been paid out to owners (him)

No they couldn’t because the severance is paid out of the money the budget set aside for wages for the year. So out of the 12 months, they give 4 months to the laid off worker and Facebook pockets the other 8 months.

He is not putting the shares down himself. He is just subject to price fluctuations like everyone else — so how is he taking personal responsibility for it?

If you try and hold a short position for 25 years, you will lose all your money, even if you were right.

I'm convinced that 99.9% of folks online who claim they're going to "short a stock" have never actually shorted anything in their life.

Yeah, this is a justification, but still -- they save single digit billions doing this, while AI capex is $150B (same timeframe) and RL spend is $16B. Feels like you could make the same cut from AI capex and barely notice a difference.

My gut feel was that you can't be right, but it looks like you are: cutting 8000 employees * $500k/year total cost to company (rough but useful ballpark figure) is "only" $4B.

Cross-checking against actual expenditure, Meta spent $118B total last year, with the second largest component of total spending being stock comp at $42B, of which vast slabs went to the top leadership that's presumably also not getting fired.


Though not all of that capex is cash; there's a whole phantom wampum AI economy where the big players are trading promissory notes for compute that doesn't exist yet (and may never exist) some time in the future and booking it as revenue.

Maybe you're thinking of AWS/Azure/Oracle? Meta isn't selling their compute.

Meta plays that game too; they're on the hook to buy compute that CoreWeave has yet to build (and may never be able to build) which counts as "revenue" for CoreWeave and an "asset" for Meta even though no actual money or compute has changed hands.

Meta promised to buy dc capacity for ai workloads. If I remember it correctly, it created a common company with an investment fund as well that took on debt to build capacity.

You calculate the cutoffs as savings for this years while imagining that the future payments are payments only for this year. At the same time the commitments are for 5-20 years ahead and the laid off people would be off the payroll for the same multiple years ahead.


These games are far more dangerous to the industry than "AI now = badcode future".

They're a suicidal bet, because they assume cloud LLMs are efficient and inevitable.

Neither of those is true, or even likely, and we're going to see the consequences by the end of the decade.


The figure I've seen floated is $6B, but yeah, same idea.

It’s slightly more nuanced than layoffs = capex. You’re right, they don’t. That said, they do create free cash flow, which the market uses as one important input into the value of a given stock. Moving FCF positively when capex spending is moving it the other way is the real financial accounting move that is happening here.

salaries are opex, data centers are capex, you can't compare them in the same timeframe.

4B over 5 years is 20B, which is significant.


4B over 5 years is still 4B. It's 0.8B/yr

If I read it right, the 4B ballpark figure is based on total annual per employee cost of 500k * 8000 employees, so the figure is actually 4B/year. 20B over five years.

I think any company that is seen to reduce capex right now is going to be the Bear Sterns of this cycle

Is this because you think the market will short sell them, or because capex is so worthwhile right now that a company which doesn't invest will fall fatally behind?

The former; I think there's simply not the capacity to build the infrastructure that would be required to significantly improve the current tech as much as is expected (and there may never be the capacity to build that much infrastructure).

There's a whole lot of circular funding being passed among the same dozen or so companies right now with very little actual construction or assets to show for it and at some point someone will be holding the bag when actual money is called for, and nobody wants it to be them. The parallels with both 2008 and the '90s S&L crisis are troubling.


"they're not even trying to catch up"

Doing slightly less than 150b looks bad to investors. Or at least it looks small.

Imagine the productivity gains if they just spent $150B on booze and cake for employees!

That is one of my huge complaints about the current levels of AI investments. You can do pretty much anything you want if you got $150B to spend, and then you go burn it on being uncompetitive in the AI space. Then you have the $80B Metas Reality Labs spend on a failed virtual reality and a pair of Ray-Bans.

It's not like Meta has nothing to show for the money it spend, but it seems like they could have spend that money on improving Facebook or Instagram, not that I think Zuckerberg really cares about those product anymore.


Yes but would an improved Facebook and Instagram bring in more revenue than the current shitty Facebook and Instagram?

he doesn't but increasingly people don't care about facebook, and that will come for instagram as well. These social apps seem to be .. generational. Boomers use facebook and they are dropping like flies. Twitter has it's own cohort, instagram it's own. I don't expect these products to last forever, tiktok took a huge bite out of instagram. These are fad products.

Mark is just looking for the next fad.


And coke. Not the cold drink.

you get another taste of coke every time you clear 100 tickets. not the cold drink.

This is also illegal for any rich or powerful service members.

40% to taxes is a very high estimate for L4-L5, even in places like California or NY.

For context, when the article says "a list of work-related apps and websites," this includes Google properties like gmail, docs, etc, and social media websites like Facebook and Instagram, with no provision for excluding personal accounts.

No one intelligent should be logging into their personal accounts on their work devices in any case - it's always been the case (at least in the US) that companies can do whatever invasive scanning they want on devices they own.

Meta forces employees to use personal Facebook accounts at work.

Everyone here is slightly wrong.

Meta does require you to have a Facebook account. The expectation is that it is your personal fb that you use regularly. However, it doesn’t need to be. You can create a new fb account with a new gmail account and that’s fine. That’s what I did and some others do as well.

That said, 90%+ of employees end up using their real personal account because the language they use makes it seem like you couldn’t do what I described.


Cool that they don't let others do it. I tried to make a work fb account to access the hellscape that is business manager and they blocked it. Pricks.

This hasn’t been true for 8+ years.

Having both a personal and work Facebook account is against the rules and may lead to getting the account suspended.

[flagged]


They absolutely do, wtf are you talking about.

Also people use their work accounts and laptops to read their w2 and other sensitive info.


It at least used to be true. In order to accept the job offer, you would have to make (or have) a Facebook account.

The W2 is already provided by the employer, is it really sensitive for the employer to see it?

Idk, do you think it's sensitive for the employer to train an AI with it and then put that AI on Instagram for everyone to use and ask for employee SSNs?

At meta your personal FB account is your work account. I had to create one to get paid. It’s the same identity used in internal systems.

Yes, but, so what? It isn't a license to train AI on employee personal information.

That said -- social media websites were later removed from the "work-related" list. So there was at least some recognition it was overreach and did not match the stated justification.


You know you are at work and monitored.

You can browser personal accounts from your phone.


Yeah automatically assume everything on your work computer is available for your employer to see. And everything you do on your own device when connected to their WiFi or VPN.

I’m surprised this needs to be said out loud.


>You know you are at work and monitored.

unless you're in a jurisdiction that has anti-surveillance workplace laws, which if you don't should probably think about before Mark Zuckerberg gets the idea to monitor to your body temperature from below the waistline


- workplace being monitored (US)

- getting paid half the salary (EU)

I know which one most people pick.


without a doubt liberty and privacy don't seem to be particularly high up on the list of priorities in the land of the free. Although if the American founders had 24/7 surveilled, compliant, worker drones at mega corporations in mind for an extra check might be worth pondering

on your phone not connected to corp wifi

That doesn't matter anymore unless they have an SSL proxy. If you have ECH/ODoH anyway.

If anyone can fingerprint your personal device while literally inside the building, it is Facebook.

You don’t even need any to do something fancy in software. Could just be correlating mobile device presence with work laptop activity. Can triangulate physical location with a handful of Bluetooth or WiFi beacons.


Lots of those these days. Zacaler has a fair amount of enterprise market penetration.

And Ideally not connected to company WiFi

No, because prod doesn't have hardcoded cookies baked into it?

If you always test with a date of 1/1/2000 then you don't know that your choice fails in 2039.

These fake-time environments let you set the time, so you can test how the code will behave in 2039 without waiting for 13 years. For Go's synctest, 1-1-2000 is just the default initial value for now().

We don't give these hypochondriacs saline injections with dirty needles, though.

> This is common practice in much of developed world.

Do you mean "developing?" This is not common practice in rich Western countries.

Additionally, as sibling has already pointed out, sterile disposable syringes are extremely cheap.


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