That's quite amazing. I find 1, 2, 3, 4 straw men in so few words. That's usually an indicator that somebody's not really interested in rational discussion, but we've already gone beyond the grain of normal chat here so I'm a bit confused. So let me ask you a simple question, do you think everything you just said fairly represents what I have stated and/or implied in our discussion? If I point out misrepresentations you're making, would this be meaningfully likely to change your views?
I am just trying to figure out your angle on this, because I do not think Monsanto being the devil incarnate, or some scientists believing in eugenics 100 years ago has much bearing on whether we should use GMOs now to let people in areas where conventional crops do not grow well feed themselves. Argument that "there are too many people in the world" aside, I do not see how it could be a bad thing.
Again, let me ask you the same question. Do you think what you just said in way reasonable represents what I've stated throughout our discussion? And again, if I point out the [rather absurd] misrepresentation you're making, would it be likely to change your view one way or the other?
Well, I think that you are throwing strawmen by a barnful here, Monsanto, eugenics, whatnot, but other than a few inaccurate statements about food being bountiful and people not starving you are trying to avoid talking about what the real issue is -- would less hysteria about GMOs and increased use help with feeding people who are starving now, or not? It'a pretty simple, really.
And this is another straw man. I don't think many people particularly care if Monsanto wants to get setup shop in e.g. Zimbabwe. In fact, I don't even mind if they setup in the US. All I would like to see is appropriate labeling of products enabling people to make their own choice.
On the other issue though, you are now also lying or in complete denial of reality. I provided clearly sourced and strong evidence indicating that lack of food is not a problem, though distribution of food is. Your example of Zimbabwe was poorly chosen, but also a hornet's nest - which is why I chose not to get into it. But I'll go ahead and poke that nest now. They are arguably the poster boy for bad social decisions leading to hunger.
Back in ~2000 Zimbabwe decided to seize the land of white farmers and give it to black individuals in a purely racial attack. The problem is that it turns out that the locals have, even after years, been unable to develop the skills necessary to actually cultivate 'their' land, and the country has been in a food crisis ever since. You can find an enormous number of sources on this but here is one at random [1]. They actually tried to invite the former farmers back, but that ship has sailed.
Their drought is probably not even the straw that broke the camel's back. That back has been broken for years. Oh yes, and about the same time as Mugabe decided to seize all the lands of the white farmers, he also decided to return Zimbabwe to a socialist command system which has a rich history of starvation. There was a great article on that here [2]: "Last week we could not afford bread. This week we cannot get bread." The Atlantic also has a typically verbose writeup here [3], which I cannot say I have read - but the facts here are not exactly ambiguous.
We can even make some predictions here. Within a decade (and probably much sooner) you're also likely to see mass starvation in South Africa which is now following exactly in Zimbabwe's footsteps. And no, some seed is not going to suddenly solve these problems, especially if we want to get into exactly what is meant by 'increased yield' as it relates to engineered seed. It's not what you think, but again that's another topic!
As a matter of fact, you are now expanding on exactly the point I was making (or part of it anyway) -- in some places, of which Zimbabwe is an example, agricultural problems are caused by political issues. Normally it is a good place to grow stuff. The same just is not the case in, say, Sahel, and attempts to grow enough food using old methods and old crops just lead to deforestation, drought and generally more problems.
And while you personally may not mind GMO use, there are a lot of people, some of whom can negatively affect those countries, who, out of sheer ignorance as far as we can say at this time, very much do object to GMO use regardless of labeling.
Also, been a fun chat. But I think these things could be so much more civil if folks (on any side of any issue) would lay off the straw men. There's no need for that nonsense. It may make debate easier, but we should really be able to defend either side of any issue, within reason. Failing to be able to do so probably means you're not really considering the other person's point of view. And if you don't do this how would you ever expect to convince anybody of anything?
Right, and there are also people who who support GMOs out of pure ignorance. Lots of different people, lots of different views on most any topic of course! But I guess we're about wrapping up?
